1 (edited by finaro 2016-04-03 19:43)

Topic: Maybe there should be a reversable or 'cure' for Transformatons?

While I do know that transformations in the Belial universe are canonly 'permanent' but what if I wanted to write that this isn't the case at all? Well can Transformations truly be reversible and maybe there's someway that could be done?

Since I heard that Transformations are endless but reversing it is somehow 'impossible' which I find problematic at this case.

I wonder if anyone is interested writing a story about one reversing even the most extreme of Transformations?

Well the main reason being that if the transformation was reversible then one can try out different transformations and feel different sensations rather living the rest of their existence as that transformee. Maybe a Greater Demon decides to share this knowledge perhaps how to reverse them? And I wonder how different and how it'll fundamentally change Assiain society if this ever the possibility?

Also just imagine the possiblites for stories involving reversible transformations where the protagonist or the group of friends transforms into different things but reverse back to their normal human selves but to be transformed back again and again...

Like for example a group of friends go through a transformative themed funhouse where they strip naked and they have a 'challenge' to go through the entire thing unchanged but however due to how 'impossible' the funhouse is by design, they just undergoe extreme transformation into bizzare creatures which if they're transformed, they have to go through the entire section until transformed back to human in the next 'checkpoint' or something like that.

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Re: Maybe there should be a reversable or 'cure' for Transformatons?

The reason transformations aren't  reversible is once you hit a certain amoount of fleshwarping on the same person, they "harden" like the  body growing scar  tissue.   After a point you can't  change further, and trying to sculpt flesh like clay becomes harder after a change, rather akin to firing a clay pot in a kiln. 

You can change them again, but pushing them back to their original configuration is akin to trying to un-fire a clay pot, and removes the danger of the principal  antagonists of the setting.

The best most can hope for is whoever changes them again has a delicate enough touch to prise out a mana seal and resculpt them into something more able to live a normal life, even if their original human form is lost.

Only demons and half--demons retain any ability to sculpt themselves at will.

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Re: Maybe there should be a reversable or 'cure' for Transformatons?

You know, one of my questions that somewhat relates to this is whether or not fleshwarping passes down through the generations. I guess the basic question of fertility of the transformed also applies.

Given the sexual enthusiasm of the transformed alongside the relatively high risk of getting transformed in some way during the average lifetime, it is a wonder there are any normal humans left at all, assuming a positive answer to both of the above questions.

Well, you know what they say; "When in Rome, do the Romans"

4 (edited by finaro 2016-04-03 23:44)

Re: Maybe there should be a reversable or 'cure' for Transformatons?

LamiaWoman wrote:

The reason transformations aren't  reversible is once you hit a certain amoount of fleshwarping on the same person, they "harden" like the  body growing scar  tissue.   After a point you can't  change further, and trying to sculpt flesh like clay becomes harder after a change, rather akin to firing a clay pot in a kiln. 

You can change them again, but pushing them back to their original configuration is akin to trying to un-fire a clay pot, and removes the danger of the principal  antagonists of the setting..

However unlike clay, the flesh is supposed to be flexible which can changed and therefore reversed back at any time though which I somewhat disagree with this.

Although unfortunately this is how Demon Man designed the world otherwise because he wanted a world where reversable transformations are 'hard to achieve' and this is his in universe 'explanation' or justification when he wrote the world just like how he made principal antagonists are 'unbeatable' and high powerful for this very purpose.

LamiaWoman wrote:

The best most can hope for is whoever changes them again has a delicate enough touch to prise out a mana seal and resculpt them into something more able to live a normal life, even if their original human form is lost.

However though, it is still 'depression' and 'nihilistic' that things will never remain the same pre-transformed though which is one of the biggest reasons why I don't like permanent transformations of Beliali universe.


Gee-chan wrote:

You know, one of my questions that somewhat relates to this is whether or not fleshwarping passes down through the generations. I guess the basic question of fertility of the transformed also applies.

Given the sexual enthusiasm of the transformed alongside the relatively high risk of getting transformed in some way during the average lifetime, it is a wonder there are any normal humans left at all, assuming a positive answer to both of the above questions.

You know I always toyed the idea about a scenario where everyone in Assiah are transformed and there are no normal humans left  since I've created a thread about this way back that nobody responded to though since realistically if transformations are highly contagious and happens in a ever increasing rapid rate, then realistically all of humans would be transformed into sex creatures in that particular world mathematically of course.

Of course though that's also why it's almost like your character has to be made out of metal/wood/rock/etc or any type golem/robot just to 'survive' in the world of beliali without the fear of being inevitably transformed. Unless one was immune to transformations of course which maybe mana/dcum/etc has entirely different effects on them...

5

Re: Maybe there should be a reversable or 'cure' for Transformatons?

Oh and perhaps if you brought a WoD Vampire into Assiah and use the Stone Of The True Form on a Transformee....

Perhaps it also brings me ideas about a in-universe stone or a tiny pebble that is fabled/legendary that is said to reverse all types of transformations with a single touch.

6

Re: Maybe there should be a reversable or 'cure' for Transformatons?

I don't see why that should be a problem outside the Belial universe, but the rules of the Belial universe are already established. Maybe one could come up with an elixir that made a person way more plastic (and probably unstable) than usual for a limited amount of time, like an hour or so. Within this period of time the body did not harden in a specific form, but could continue to try different forms even if going back would be difficult (prehistoric fishes could evolve into early amphibians, but amphibians have never returned to being fishes again). Transformations are about moving forward, not going back. Once the time is out, the form you have at that moment becomes permanent.

7

Re: Maybe there should be a reversable or 'cure' for Transformatons?

finaro wrote:
LamiaWoman wrote:

The reason transformations aren't  reversible is once you hit a certain amoount of fleshwarping on the same person, they "harden" like the  body growing scar  tissue.   After a point you can't  change further, and trying to sculpt flesh like clay becomes harder after a change, rather akin to firing a clay pot in a kiln. 

You can change them again, but pushing them back to their original configuration is akin to trying to un-fire a clay pot, and removes the danger of the principal  antagonists of the setting..

However unlike clay, the flesh is supposed to be flexible which can changed and therefore reversed back at any time though which I somewhat disagree with this.

Although unfortunately this is how Demon Man designed the world otherwise because he wanted a world where reversable transformations are 'hard to achieve' and this is his in universe 'explanation' or justification when he wrote the world just like how he made principal antagonists are 'unbeatable' and high powerful for this very purpose.

LamiaWoman wrote:

The best most can hope for is whoever changes them again has a delicate enough touch to prise out a mana seal and resculpt them into something more able to live a normal life, even if their original human form is lost.

However though, it is still 'depression' and 'nihilistic' that things will never remain the same pre-transformed though which is one of the biggest reasons why I don't like permanent transformations of Beliali universe.


Gee-chan wrote:

You know, one of my questions that somewhat relates to this is whether or not fleshwarping passes down through the generations. I guess the basic question of fertility of the transformed also applies.

Given the sexual enthusiasm of the transformed alongside the relatively high risk of getting transformed in some way during the average lifetime, it is a wonder there are any normal humans left at all, assuming a positive answer to both of the above questions.

You know I always toyed the idea about a scenario where everyone in Assiah are transformed and there are no normal humans left  since I've created a thread about this way back that nobody responded to though since realistically if transformations are highly contagious and happens in a ever increasing rapid rate, then realistically all of humans would be transformed into sex creatures in that particular world mathematically of course.

Of course though that's also why it's almost like your character has to be made out of metal/wood/rock/etc or any type golem/robot just to 'survive' in the world of beliali without the fear of being inevitably transformed. Unless one was immune to transformations of course which maybe mana/dcum/etc has entirely different effects on them...

AFAIK normal - or very mildly transformed people are in the vast majority everywhere - except in some special location like jizza or maybe around grave town. The stories focus on transformed protagonists, but in many areas of the empire, transformed people aren't seen everyday.

The contagious transformations are even rarer - and most of the time quickly confined by the imperial government.

Demon-man, please correct me if i'm wrong.

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Re: Maybe there should be a reversable or 'cure' for Transformatons?

Rexin wrote:

Transformations are about moving forward, not going back. Once the time is out, the form you have at that moment becomes permanent.

However there is some flaws in this argument. that if this is the case, then our very human forms should be 'permanent' as well.

Also I would disagree on your statement about Transformation which the genre's meaning is rather subjective which to me, it means "Trying out different forms and feeling the sensations of transforming into that form"

Also I heard that Vicissitude alterations from VtM even the most extreme ones are more likely reversible but yet Beliali's somehow isn't....

Of course though maybe our world (or the WoD) and Beliali work in different laws and worlds though.

9

Re: Maybe there should be a reversable or 'cure' for Transformatons?

Trying to justify making alterations to  one person's fantasy world by citing a different person's fantasy world is akin to trying to un-fuck a virgin, quite frankly.  The undead fiends of white wolf's RPG hold no relation to the demons and alchemy in the world of assaiah except cosmetic flavor.

Assaiah is Demon-Man's fantasy world.  Making such fundamental shifts canonical would require his permission regardless.   

So my question is:  why must there be a fundamental change to the belial universe?

10

Re: Maybe there should be a reversable or 'cure' for Transformatons?

Uh....where to start?

First off. I have no problem with general discussions of ideas. That's what this place is for. In fact, I encourage it. I do not even have problems with non-canon Belial stories or stories that would not fit within Belial's canon. That's what the Expanded Universe section is for. There is also the Transformation Stories section for all kind of non-Belial stories, which are welcome, too. Its not like only Belial-related things are allowed in this forum. smile

I'd just personally prefer for non-Belial stories or non-canon Belial stories to be marked as such or posted in the appropriate section of the forum but that's just me being a bit anal about these things.

In regards to changing the canon of Belial. That's obviously up to me and won't happen. I made transformations permanent by usual default for a reason. Without it, if they became interchangeable as clothing, they'd lose their impact and the whole universe would fall apart. At least in the form I envisioned it. That doesn't mean that temporary transformations, as Finaro describes, are impossible. Just rare or only possible under specific conditions, e.g. a demon can change a person back and forth however they want, demons themselves are shapeshifters anyway and so are some half-demons. Powerful mages might be able to do the same to some extent or at least change their own bodies as they please. There might be a very specific machine or alchemical solutions to change a person back to their original form if used to transform them in the first place. However such a device or substance would need constant control and would be very rare and/or expensive. If there is a good explanation for it, I have no problem with such things in the canon itself, so long they are not aimed to overtake it and change Belial as a whole (in which case it would belong into the Expanded Universe).

Nonethless, as mentioned. Finaro is free to discuss his ideas and everybody is free to join in. I wouldn't add it to the canon of Belial but it has the right to exist as an alternative.

In regards to the proportion of transformees in the general population:
Nikita is absolutely right. The obvious focus of art and stories on transformations distort the picture. Transformees make up a very small percentage of the overall (imperial) population (with exceptions like Jizza and Suto). I'd compare them to extreme bodymodders or physically disabled people (e.g. wheelchair users), where despite not being uncommon, they still stand out to some extent.

Furthermore, the reproduction question was brought up. Most transformations do not affect the dna or at least reproductive cells. As such, most transformees have normal, human children. There are some exceptions, either accidental or by design. For example, Freyan women give birth to normal babies. That's why there is a ritual of transformation when their daughters turn old enough. People affected by the B-virus on the either hand, find their reproductive organs changed on a genetic level, so they can only have offspring with hybrids of the same animal species and give birth to hybrids themselves.

11 (edited by finaro 2016-10-21 01:07)

Re: Maybe there should be a reversable or 'cure' for Transformatons?

LamiaWoman wrote:

So my question is:  why must there be a fundamental change to the belial universe?

One of the reasons for making transformations not permanent is because it allows a person to try on different forms at their liking and return back to their human forms much akin to putting on a costume for one thing. It's also because I find the whole notion of permanency and loosing one's human form especially living the rest of their existence in a very unconventional body very disturbing in my opinion.

This is what I don't like about Belial's universe nor do I like any excuse to why the transformations are permanent which makes no sense nor do I care much about it.

Demon-Man wrote:

Nonethless, as mentioned. Finaro is free to discuss his ideas and everybody is free to join in. I wouldn't add it to the canon of Belial but it has the right to exist as an alternative.

Well thank you, although reversible transformations are not in your own canon but at least you have the curiosity to allow it to exist though.

12 (edited by transartfan 2016-11-25 13:11)

Re: Maybe there should be a reversable or 'cure' for Transformatons?

I am glad that it's  permanent  I think it's more of an impact. I kind of prefer them to try to get on with their lives afterwards as best they can. I do believe most transformees try to cope and adapt to thier new forms and are happy. Most not all I am sure there are plenty that don't like them. However I am sure they come around eventually.

13

Re: Maybe there should be a reversable or 'cure' for Transformatons?

transartfan wrote:

I am glad that it's  permanent  I think it's more of an impact. I kind of prefer them to try to get on with their lives afterwards as best they can. I do believe most transformees try to cope and adapt to thier new forms and are happy. Most not all I am sure there are plenty that don't like them. However I am sure they come around eventually.

This is where I find Belial stories to be problematic since most people often overlook how terrifyingly horrifying and tragic the very concept of permanent transformations actually are and even if they "come around eventually" they're still in a "And I Must Scream" situation as it's logical outcome no matter what even if it's a pleasurable one. I guess the only 'cure' for Transformee in the Belial universe is apparently Death....

Upon knowing this, the other biggest problem with Belial's Permanent transformations is that it's almost very Nintendo Hard to stay human in this world and one wrong move, it's game over. Hence might as well play as a Robot or anything that is not organic if one ever plays in this world.

In short, This is also why I strongly disagree with Legend of Belial's themes since I feel transformations should be less about "Impact" but more to do with the sensenations of changing form, living as that creature, the shock value, and then returning human to tell the tale or otherwords Transformations should be treated as fun and exciting new sexual territory to explore which what makes it thrilling because of it's shock value not something how it permanently impacts a person's life making it not only tragic but also making it something to avoid even more and even the consensual ones would feel like assisted suicide which is very disturbing.

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Re: Maybe there should be a reversable or 'cure' for Transformatons?

!@Finaro

Its okay if you would like to write stories with non-permanent transformations, its what works for you. I also think people have been very open and welcoming to your tastes, but I think you would have to see that a lot of the people on the board don’t have the same tastes as you do. I’m not saying your tastes or ours are right or wrong, but calling the main Belial cannon “problematic” comes across a little condescending to those who do like those types of transformation.

I think if you have some ideas for temporary TF stories, I say go ahead and write them, but trying to talk people into liking your kinks is a bit of an uphill battle.

15

Re: Maybe there should be a reversable or 'cure' for Transformatons?

As someone who can see both sides of this, I reckon there is a place for non-permanent transformations and can see several ideas for them. A lycanthropy-style one where the victim only transforms under certain but unavoidable circumstances would be exactly what some of less stable Avatars would go for and I can totally see a (risky) alchemical market for temporary mutagens going for outrageous prices for the richer and more daring citizens of the world.

That or some kind of transformation spin on the magical-girl format, complete with flashing lights and overly shiny transformation sequence each time.

Well, you know what they say; "When in Rome, do the Romans"

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Re: Maybe there should be a reversable or 'cure' for Transformatons?

Last time I'm going to chime  in  I kind of like the "horror" aspect of the belial universe . It's like the thing but with sexy transformations